In this insightful episode, former high school English teacher Charles Fournier shares his journey from rural Wyoming K-12 classrooms to teaching composition at a community college. He opens up about the challenges that drove him out of public schools – book bans, lack of respect, overwhelming stress, and blurred work-life boundaries in small-town life – and why the move to higher education has restored his joy in teaching.
Charles discusses the surprising freedom, trust, and flexibility he now enjoys with adult learners, the (relatively) simple transition process, retirement continuity in his state, and how teaching non-traditional students has dramatically improved his work-life balance – even if it came with a small pay cut he’d gladly take again.
Listen to the episode in the podcast player below, or find it on Apple Podcast or Spotify.
Transcript:
Elizabeth Suto: welcome everyone. Today, we’re super excited to have Charles Fournier with us. Welcome Charles.
Charles Fournier: Hey, thanks for having me.
Elizabeth Suto: Thanks for joining us on this lovely Friday. We love to kick these off by hearing about your experience in education.
Why did you get into education and what did you teach?
Charles Fournier: I taught English and, I got into education. I think for reason. A lot of folks did. I had wonderful teachers that I was really inspired by and, just, I liked the idea of being in the classroom setting. I loved English and I also really liked the idea of coaching, so I think especially as a young person, education was track, just it seemed like I had a great time in there and I wanted to go back.
And then, I taught, let’s see, I wanna say 12 years, maybe 13 years, um, in high school. And so I taught in a small rural town in Wyoming and jumped kind of to another town. In between there, I got my master’s in literature and I taught at the, uh, university of Wyoming. And now I have moved on from the high school setting and I am teaching community college.
So still teaching, still teaching English, but just in a new setting.
Elizabeth Suto: Thank you for sharing that. And I’m curious, you taught in a rural district, a rural location. Are there any things you noticed, I don’t know if you had anything to compare it to with friends who taught in cities, but was how was that?
Charles Fournier: Wyoming’s interesting. We, I think we have pretty good access to resources ’cause it’s not competitive like we are, I feel like in that town, our closest town was another maybe 40 minutes away. So things aren’t very close together and so they, they try to really help you out with what you need. I think the biggest thing was that everybody knew you, which is unique from even in teaching in Cheyenne, Wyoming, which is a little bit bigger where not everybody knows you, but I feel like when we moved to the town.
Both my wife and I were teaching there. Somebody approached us at the store, they’re like, oh, you guys, you’re the new folks that moved into so-and-so’s old house. We’re like, oh my God. Yep. Yeah, we are. But so it was just, you know, the, the community and I think you couldn’t both good and bad. You couldn’t get away from the students or the folks that you or their parents.
So in town, if, if you were out and about, you would absolutely run into students, you’d run into parents. And so the teachers, figured out how to, I know one of the guys joined the Elks Lodge ’cause he’s like, yeah, we can go into the Elks and, and hang out and have a drink and no parents will see us.
Or we’d go over to Nebraska ’cause we were right on the border and we’d go hang out in Nebraska. So, there was a really difficult time of maybe separating your teacher life from the outside life because it was all intertwined. Like the community is the school. And so yeah, it was, everything was just intertwined.
Elizabeth Suto: That makes sense. and that kind of leads me to my next question. So is that why you left the, that setting teaching English and now you are in teaching community college higher education?
Charles Fournier: Yeah. And I think that first job I left, Mainly it was, it was a great place to start. It was a hard place to start. And I taught in Cheyenne, which was a bigger, it’s considered a city by Wyoming standards, but probably a town by everywhere else. You know, I had a little bit more separation, but I think the biggest reason for leaving the, the high school setting had more to do with the level of stress and the lack of respect. Teachers were, are getting kind of across the board. And, you know, I really like teaching. I love being in that environment. I love helping folks out. And I had a really great admin. Like I, I, can’t say anything bad about the admin I had. But there are things that I.
I just didn’t feel like we were being supported in the community. There were book policies coming through that were trying to get rid of books. So a lot of the books on my bookshelf by the last year I was there were supposed to be banned, because they were considered sexually explicit, even though it was like perks of being a Wallflower or beloved.
Like, these are great, texts, and in my mind, perks of being a wallflower has saved more kids for me than anything else because they finally feel seen in something. And so I was realizing that. I knew I wasn’t gonna change how I taught or how I approached English or talking to students as human beings.
And the way that laws were going wasn’t actually gonna let me do what I know was good for kids. And so I just felt like it was time to go and I still love teaching and I’m still getting to teach English just in an environment that trust me more. And I have a little bit more freedom to do what I know is good for the students.
Elizabeth Suto: Thank you for sharing that because now I’m curious, in your new role you have that flexibility and kind of what that looks like. But also a lot of our listeners are curious about moving to higher education
Charles Fournier: Yeah.
Elizabeth Suto: there’s that flexibility and, and choosing the curriculum is a little different than what you’re mandated by the state. So can you just tell us, what your job is, a teacher at the community college and a day in the life of what you do?
Charles Fournier: Yeah, so I am an English instructor. I’m focused on the fundamentals courses. So these are courses for students who, they’re self-selected, that feel like they’re not quite ready for the first English composition class. We call it English 10 10. And so I help them get ready for just what it’s like to be in college, what it’s like to maybe get back into the swing of thinking about text, thinking about rhetoric.
I haven’t taught any literature classes yet at the college level. I really, like the writing classes. And so it’s focused on, on the writing process. And I feel like a big part of my role is to root people on and help ’em gain the confidence that maybe they had negative experiences with education before, and so that’s why they’re coming to community college later, or.
Most of my students are non-traditional, where they’re coming from military or they were in the workforce for a while, or, you know, they got three kids and they find like they want to go back to school. And so I think, it’s interesting that I’m, I’m teaching adults where I’m not really worried as much about what I say and I don’t feel like I’m saying anything crazy, but I’m not always looking over my shoulder, worried about admin or parents.
And so that’s, that’s wonderful. But it’s also so much more relaxing. I like, I don’t know how to, I feel like there’s so many things that I can think of that make it relaxing where, being a teacher, being in the hallway as the bell rings, you just hear this wave of noise, right? Like, and you can feel the cortisol levels coming into your classroom as like a K 12 teacher.
And my very first semester as my first class, I, did something. Maybe goofy. That didn’t quite work. And I had to like reorganize what I was doing in my lesson. And they just, my students at the college, they just waited quietly and there was no, slapping each other, yelling across the hall. It was just so quiet.
And I even told ’em, I was like, guys, this is nuts. If I did this in the high school, it would take me a while to kinda reign folks back in. But thank you for staying calm. and so I think. What I’ve noticed, making that transition is I do feel like I have a lot of freedom and I have a lot of trust in doing what I’m supposed to do.
And, you know, we have, kind of an outline of what’s expected for each course, but I can address that in any way I see fit. So I get to choose the texts, uh, the assignments, all of that, which is really nice. I also am not obligated to stay at the building if I’m not working or don’t have office hours.
And so there’s, I can move around or if I’m in class and I gotta go to the bathroom, they’re adults, I can leave them. I’m gonna go to the bathroom and I can come back. And so there’s these small things that I am just not used to. And, I feel like if you’ve seen The Shawshank Redemption.
There was a point in one of the movies where he is gotta ask to go to the bathroom. And he’s I just can’t go if I don’t ask. And as I started this job, I had, I, I would walk by my boss’s office and say Hey, I’m gonna, I think I’m gonna head home. And she’s okay, do you need anything from me?
I was like, no, just, letting you know. And she’s okay, you don’t have to tell me. I was like, oh, okay, thanks. And, that was, that’s all. I’m still trying to figure that out. But, mostly it’s been great. It’s been a really, nice transition.
Elizabeth Suto: That’s wonderful to hear. And it, makes me laugh a little. ’cause similarly, I started my first position outside of the classroom, I was the same way. And I’ve got a dentist appointment, from 10 to 11. I’m just letting you know. I put it on the calendar and they said, okay, You don’t have to tell us that we trust you. And just like that different mindset of having to double check and everything that you’re doing. so that my next question, it’s coming back to me now, but I. You had, if you were teaching in public schools, you go through the state, you have a credential. So if someone’s looking to teach in higher education, what does that process look like? Do they need to obtain some sort of adult learner credential, or how would they even start the path to get into this?
Charles Fournier: So this was part of the irony that felt wild for me. in the position I’m in, I’m one of a few folks that have a background in education. Most folks don’t have, education courses or anything. They, only have a master’s degree in, and I’m not saying only, but they have a master’s degree in their content area.
And so what was interesting for me making the transition was I was in the space that. Folks didn’t necessarily have an education background and I was trusted far more to be an educator than I was in a space where I, you know, it’s expected to have an education background, so it was really kind of interesting thing for me.
But at least in the community college, and I know for lecture positions, a lot of times at university level, the expectation is that you have a master’s degree in the content area that you would like to teach. With that said, especially I think in the humanities, We just put open an application and they said yes, if, you know, if they have a degree in say English, but then they have a master’s in curriculum and development, we’ll accept that too.
And so it’s, I think, gonna be institution, per institution what they decide. But having the master’s level degree in your content area is typically what they’re looking for. And you don’t, you don’t have to have adult education background. Most institutions will put you through kind of a quick little orientation of saying, Hey, here’s some things to think about for teaching adults.
At my school, I had a year long where we met, I wanna say, every month, whereas thinking about pedagogy or I’m losing the word, but for adult, adult pedagogy, which is another term that’s new to me. But really it’s if you are an educator. It transitions so well to that setting, like the backward design, the, the, scaffolding, all of the buzzwords.
It is so nice in that college setting. It’s not as difficult, I think, to make that transition. Just need the higher or the, the master’s degree for most folks.
Elizabeth Suto: What about career growth? Do you feel like, I know you mentioned you’re teaching the writing process. Let’s say you wanna go into literature or A different type of teaching. Are you able to move around or teach different classes as you work there?
Charles Fournier: Our department has a rotating cycle, and so I will be teaching a literature course in the fall, and I just have to put my name on a list. So I have my name on a list for some creative writing classes where I’ll teach podcasting. So every few semesters I’ll be able to rotate into this so it stays fresh of what I’m getting to do.
But it also, based on what I’ve experienced in talking to my dean and my chair, is that. There is a lot of flexibility, like if I’m interested in doing something else, I have some options there. In terms of like the upward growth with what I’m making or I guess, I dunno, career progress, it does feel very much similar to what is happening in K 12, where you’re kind of in one spot.
You know, if I wanted to do more research and I dunno, maybe move on, I, it would take me to get another degree, but. Right now I’m, I’m just really excited to have some flexibility in getting to choose courses and even, even the courses I teach, like I can change what I’m doing from semester to semester.
That’s not a problem. but I guess I have some flexibility with what I get to teach. And if I wanted to, create a club or create another program that is on the table and I just have to go through the process to, to get it approved.
Elizabeth Suto: Awesome. for those listening, I know a big question for a lot of teachers who are transitioning is, when they leave. The public school system, they have a pension, they have their retirement. So does the community college, did they offer a retirement plan or, I know every state is different, but if you wouldn’t mind sharing a little bit about your experience.
Charles Fournier: Yeah, this was a big reason why I looked to leave to the community college was that my, Wyoming retirement continued. So I just had to transfer it over to the community college and it’s kept everything I earned as a teacher, in the K 12 and it’s just building. And so I was looking specifically for state jobs.
The way Wyoming retirement works is, you can go from space to space as long as you’re. Within or vested in the system. And so for me it was ideal and I, did consciously choose as I was looking for options outside of K 12 find a space that would maintain and continue my retirement. that was a big part of my decision there.
Elizabeth Suto: That’s very helpful to know. And I know, like you mentioned, that’s how it is for Wyoming.
Charles Fournier: Right.
Elizabeth Suto: states will vary. That is helpful to know, looking something state-based to see if that will continue on for those who, who really wanna hang on to that.
Charles Fournier: Yeah.
Elizabeth Suto: Yeah. And I’m excited to dive into, what you do as well.
You’re a podcast host, so another fellow podcast host. Tell us a little bit about how you kind of started that opportunity and, and what you do there.
Charles Fournier: Originally getting into podcasting and getting into radio, it was because I wanted, I always like authentic. Lessons in school. And so I wanted to do radio or podcasting in my class, and I had friends that worked at Wyoming Public Radio. So I said, Hey, can I come sit in on one of your editing sessions for their podcast, human Nature?
And they said, yeah, sure. So I went in and I hung out and I listened, and I, kind of just didn’t go away. As I went there, I met a brilliant reporter named Tennessee Watson, and we did this, it was kind of my intro to producing, and we created a series. Called belonging about the youth exodus in Wyoming and, why folks stay or leave.
And I kind of, just bounced from podcast to podcast and, you know, making features for Wyoming Public Radio. And so I, I got this foundation and background of producing audio and then, at one point, my wife, she left education, she taught for seven years and she left, went to get her pharmacy degree and we would consistently have conversations about why teachers leave.
And especially with the background in podcasting, I thought, man, it’d be so cool to have a podcast about teachers leaving. And, you know, it was kind of just in the back of my mind. And then we were watching the show, and I don’t know if any, a lot of folks hadn’t seen it, but it was. I wanna say Mr.
Gorman, it was a Joseph Gordon Levitt teacher show where he was a teacher. And you know, I really liked it because it showed the anxiety and some of the, like the panic teachers have coming into the classroom. But for him, teaching was still like a, a fallback. And my wife brought up the point that, you know, teachers.
In TV shows, like they’re always on this spectrum of they’re either martyrs or they’re saints, or it’s like they love it or it was the last ditch thing. And, uh, we had this conversation about, okay, like, well how much is pop culture impacting what we’re seeing in education? And so as we had that conversation, we started thinking of other ideas of why teachers are leaving and, you know, from politics to curriculum to, all of the things.
And so I had kind of a fleshed out idea for a podcast. I applied for a grant through Fund for Teachers, which any of you out there that want a wonderful opportunity fund for teachers is amazing. So I, I wrote a professional development idea, send it to them. They gave me a grant and so I spent that summer recording teachers thinking about why they leave and, why they stay, and that that was that first season.
And so I was excited. I thought it was gonna be one and done. And then after that season came out and. Folks reacted and had some, pretty positive feedback. Started thinking about, okay, what would a next step be? And since nothing, the podcast didn’t change the world and everything wasn’t great for teachers.
So I was thinking about, okay, what are other things that folks are, I guess, non-educators don’t understand? And so I, wanted to kind of. Pull back the veil. And so season two is looking at, the year in the life of teachers. So I had teachers from across the country keep audio journals of their 2324 school year.
And this second season is a comp compilation of their experiences because I really, I just want to, I want non-educators to understand what’s happening in the classroom. And what I’ve noticed is that. Teachers who hear the show usually feel validated. They’re like, oh, sweet. I’m not alone. And what this podcast does you guys do is I feel like it’s very validating for teachers and they realize they’re not crazy.
It’s something other folks are experiencing too.
Elizabeth Suto: I’m excited for season two and I love how you have teachers
said. I, think I heard you correctly, from across the US so from different areas. I think that’ll be. very helpful and interesting. So you get different perspectives of what’s happening in different
Charles Fournier: Yeah.
Elizabeth Suto: And then from season one, did you notice any patterns trends?
What was the data saying when you were speaking with those educators? Why were they leaving? I know you mentioned politics, curriculum. Can you expand, on your findings?
Charles Fournier: Yeah, I, think the most common one was, it’s like a cultural thing. It’s, it’s a idea of being respected and, and and I think that shows up in a variety of ways. You know, having phones in school kind of demonstrates a, we don’t respect this place. It is, it is not a place that we value. And, that’s, that’s why we have the distractions in this place, or how
the, micromanaging of curriculum from the community or from school boards or legislation. And I, I think, you know, pay is a part of it, but I think that’s also tied to a level of respect. I think a lot of folks just feel overworked and there’s so many expectations and there’s so many contradictory expectations of you need to be nurturing, you need to care for our kids, but actually you should only just focus on the curriculum. Why are you teaching them anything else? But my kid is hungry. Like, we should be able to take care of that. And, you know, these kids are getting in a fight.
It’s, it’s your responsibility to break it up or there’s a school shooter and you need to be a martyr for your students and protect them. There’s all these contributing factors that are pulling, I think, teachers in all these different directions. And I feel like because there isn’t a clear understanding of what education is for and what the role of the teacher is.
Like what their role is. We’re having a lot of mixed messaging, and I think that’s leading to the exhaustion and the burnout, and not feeling supported and maybe not feeling like you’re getting paid what you’re worth or paid for what you’re doing. those were kind of, you know, the consistent things of just, again, under the large umbrella of just feeling like they’re not being valued or respected for what they’re doing.
Elizabeth Suto: So what do you think, we’ve talked a little bit about these reasons why. so exhausted.
so what do you think in, your opinion, would make conditions better? What do you see a way of solving this, big issue?
Charles Fournier: Man. Yeah. I feel So many things have to happen. It’s not gonna be, a one domino changes the world. I do think that it’s going to come from legislation to a point where, I think you gotta trust teachers. I think that’s a big part. I think having the funding that allows for the trust, so having funding that allows folks to have smaller class sizes, have a livable wage so they’re not having to stretch themselves outside of the classroom.
I think having an environment that, like thinking of the students, if like the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs aren’t being met at the bottom, then it’s gonna be really difficult to have a quality education in the public setting. And so, you know, I think there are some other things that, you know, we, we should be taking care of kids that don’t have food. Like we should have food programs, and I think there’s a lot of social things that should be put in place that will then have a trickle or like trickle down effect to what’s happening in education. I don’t know that all the decisions within education or should be within education, I think it’s gonna be some cultural shifts that have to occur and there needs to be a valuing of education, whereas right now there’s, there’s kind of like a, a movement of anti-intellectualism where.
Learning is feared. Books are something to be afraid of instead of to learn from. so I think this cultural shift, funding will help. Legislation’s gonna help. I just, I feel like there’s a lot of fear right now, which is wild when it comes to books and other things that you can be learning in a classroom that are a hindrance to teachers wanting to stay.
Elizabeth Suto: And then what about, I just thought about this because there were phones in the high schools that community college students have phones. Do you notice a difference the, ability to focus from high school in community college?
Charles Fournier: I think it makes a big difference when you’re paying for your education. I. There are people that do have their phones, uh, but I also have the ability to say, Hey, you are taking away from your peers. Go ahead and head out. we’ll, we’ll see you next week. Try again. And that’s something that is not, you know, you can’t do in the high school setting. And I don’t know that that’s the right answer, but also I think it’s this utilitarian approach of saying, what, what are we gonna do that’s best for the most? I know there’s problems with that, but I also think that sometimes in the classroom, at least in the college setting, where I’m like, I’ve got all these folks that are paying for an education and I do not feel right, letting this one person distract from, this, this money that a lot of times they, they can’t give away willy-nilly, like they’ve gotta be able to make use of the time they have there.
I think because they wanna be there, that’s big. There’s also, you know, a level of maturity. A lot of these folks that I’m teaching are in their twenties and they are valuing things and seeing the world a little bit differently. And again, they’re not forced to be there. I think a lot of the issues I had with phones in the high school.
Was students really hyperfocused on social interaction and didn’t wanna be there. And also that they just had the free access to it, it’s tough, but, the college, they have free access to it too. But, if I say, Hey, if I see with your phone, I’m just gonna send you out.
They actually listened to it versus the high school with their, it, it, they, wouldn’t, they didn’t care.
Elizabeth Suto: thank you for sharing that. And it kind of goes back to, as we wrap up the work life balance, talking a little bit about how you have a little more flexibility now, respect, I know you mentioned that your wife Le left teaching too. So te tell us a little bit about your, work life balance now that you’re outside of K 12.
Charles Fournier: I think. The biggest thing I’m noticing is that, so we, teach four days a week. Fridays are usually left for meetings and usually I grade on Fridays. So I, I never, no, never, I almost never take things home to grade. So I have plenty of time during the day to do all the work I need to do, and that’s unique and I think that’s, a huge boon to our work-life balance that I, I have the energy to come home and do things. Um, I’m not as emotionally drained. And this was, this was a transition for me in the high school setting from the high schools of the college setting. I mean, In the high school, you have the students that absolutely adore you.
And I think as a teacher, you feed off of, you know, that energy and that excitement, but you also have the other end of the spectrum where students that man, they, they just loathe you and, it’s maybe nothing you did. They just hate everything about where they are. And so you have this emotional pull back and forth that can be really tiring at the college.
I’m a general ed class and I make great relationships, but I’m a stepping stone, and so I’m. Not as emotionally drained because the students need less of that from me. And you know that some of the things I miss from teaching the high school is having students that really, they need you and they latch on and you feel like I’m doing something important here.
But also that gives me the energy to do things at home and to hang out with my wife and, you know, to, to have the, I don’t know, the time to do stuff. I know a lot of folks too asked about, when I transitioned, they said, okay, what’s the pay like? And I did take a pay cut, but I feel like I’m being paid for what I’m doing now.
I would take this again and again and again. Like I would, I would make this decision over and over. Because, you know, it’s at the high school, you know, I was making more, but I feel like I was doing way, way, way more work. Um, and here I, I feel like I can manage my work really well and I feel pretty comfortable in what I’m doing.
And, I think the best example is coming up to a break. In high school, I felt like I was skidding to the break. And once we hit the break, it took me like a week and a half to recover. If it was a winter break or even summer, it took a couple weeks to finally rev back up. This year when I’ve hit a break, I’m just like, oh, it’s break.
Cool. And I feel like I can hit the ground running with my break. I don’t feel like I’m drained from the year, which is. so different. And, yeah. it’s been really nice to, have that transition.
Elizabeth Suto: thank you for sharing that. Especially the part about the pay as well. I know a lot of teachers deal with different factors with that. Some take pay cuts, some don’t, depending on circumstance. So appreciate you sharing
Charles Fournier: Yeah.
Elizabeth Suto: And we love to wrap these up by hearing about what you’ve learned about yourself during this process. Changing careers, starting a podcast.
Charles Fournier: Yeah. I think one of the biggest things that I took away as I I was doing interviews for a variety of different jobs and a lot of them tied to like journalism or radio or something along those lines. And what I realized was that I left several of those interviews just feeling. Terrible.
oh my God, I don’t know what I’m doing. And then I had a couple interviews that were tied to education and like the, one, the position I’m in now, and leaving that interview, I realized, oh wow, I, do know a lot about education and I do actually really love teaching. And that was something that I think it took the interview to realize.
And this is something that I’ve, I’ve found from other folks that both are on my podcast or that have talked to me about. Their experiences of considering leaving is that, when you have permission to leave the profession, I, and I feel like oddly enough, teachers don’t feel like they have permission.
There’s so much guilt tied to it. But when you have permission to leave, I think that puts some perspective on, okay, what do I actually like about this? And are there qualities of this that I enjoy? And I think that was a big part for me that I really do like mentoring people. I really like writing in English and, and, and helping people grow that skill.
And I really like cheering folks on. I, I love being in a situation where I can root for people to do things that maybe they didn’t think they could do. And thinking about a life in other professions where. I saw value in what I would be doing, but I’d be losing those things. I realized I, need a job that is going to put me in contact with people in a position where I can mentor folks and where I can help people achieve what they wanna achieve.
And, so that was, that was a big learning thing for me. I, I didn’t realize how important that was to me until, it was almost not something I did.
Elizabeth Suto: that’s a good point to take that time for that reflection to really focus on, you’re gonna be doing this for many more years or many years before retirement, so it is something you want to enjoy.
Charles Fournier: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Elizabeth Suto: Charles, thank you so much for your time today. I loved chatting with you and I can’t wait for everyone to listen.
Charles Fournier: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. It was great talking to you.
RESOURCES
- If you are struggling right now, please seek help. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is 802-273-8255
- Get the template! Writing a Teacher Resignation Letter to a Principal
- Take the FREE QUIZ: What career outside of the classroom are you qualified for?
- If you know it’s time to start your transition and are looking for resources and guidance, check out the Teacher Career Coach course today!
- Join our growing community (and connect with Daphne) on Instagram @teachercareercoach.
