Amar Kumar is a former school teacher in India and the founder of KaiPod Learning, which is an organization that helps teachers start their own Microschools. In the past few years, Kaipod Learning has become the fastest growing Microschool network in the country, supporting dozens of teachers, and bringing their education dreams to reality.
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Mentioned in the episode:
- Learn more about KaiPod at kaipodlearning.com
- Use code “TCC” to get 50% off of everything at Aspireship
- Our career path quiz at www.teachercareercoach.com/quiz
- Explore the course that has helped thousands of teachers successfully transition out of the classroom and into new careers: The Teacher Career Coach Course (If you are a Teacher Career Coach Course member, you can also sign up for our one-on-one Career Clarity calls.)
Elizabeth: Welcome, Amar.
Amar: Thank you so much for having me.
Elizabeth: Well, we love to get started and hear a little bit about your background. What got you into education in the first place? And can you tell us a little bit about your experience in education?
Amar: Happy to. Um probably like most of your listeners there was always a little bit of an itch in the back of my mind that I wanted to help people learn. Even from when I was in middle school and high school I remember I used to tutor kids. Uh I was a TA when I was in college. And I always loved the spark that people would get when they figured something out. And I loved being responsible for that spark that was uh sort of my one of my early memories.
And I wanted to become a teacher right out of high school uh right out of going into education, but for many reasons decided not to do that. One of them was, hey, right, and I knew that that was not going to be a long term sustainable career path so I wanted to do something else. But that itch was still there and I you know I didn’t listen to it and I regretted it. So a few years after college and I was working in computer science I said I still want to teach I still want to do something. So I actually found a volunteer teaching role back in India, and it kind of killed two birds with one stone. I got to be in the classroom, and I got to go back to India which I’d wanted to do for a long time. That’s where I’m from. And so that was my first teaching experience where I could volunteer as a high school math teacher in a very high needs school in rural India..
Elizabeth: Wow, that’s so interesting. Would you mind elaborating just a bit? I’m just curious, what was it like teaching in India where you’re from? What are some of the similarities and differences?
Amar: The similarities are the classrooms look the same right. This is a very high needs rural school and it looks the same as a high end school Private school in America and that should tell you something about the state of education you know it’s a classroom with four walls a door 30 desks all the students facing the same direction a blackboard um those types of things were the same teachers had lesson plans they had a curriculum there was sort of a pacing through the curriculum there was an end of year assessment right all those things were the same I think some of the differences were the Indian education system has a lot more emphasis on memorization repeating facts , repeating processes Um it’s just one of the hallmarks of the Indian systems a lot of Asian systems. Um and so that was actually one of the things I was trying to change in my classroom. I said we’ll help you figure out how to get to the Pythagorean theorem, but let’s first figure out where it came from. Let’s practice you know let’s see what Pythagoras actually did to derive it So I was trying to build more Socratic dialogue and more inquiry based and projects into my day to day which was very different. I think those are some of the my initial memories and sort of experiences in pushing against the traditional way of doing things in the classroom.
Elizabeth: And that’s great, you know, bringing that why to why are we learning this so that you can build that understanding. So after you volunteered in this position, did you move back to the States? What did it look like when you left this traditional setting? Where did you go next?
Amar: I while I was there as I was trying these new techniques. The kids were responding really well. They were no surprise getting more engaged in the learning. Uh I also started doing sort of small group high dose tutoring for the kids who needed it most after school. And all of those things were showing real effect in the basically their unit tests All of a sudden these kids are used to failing. We’re doing well So the lady who was the owner of the nonprofit that ran the school asked me to step in as the school principal. She’s like you’re doing a great job. You’re only here for a short time. Now we want you to stay longer and actually become the principal for this. Well mind you I was 25 years old, and there were teachers there who’d been teaching for 26 years. And so it was a very awkward position to be in. But I said of course like this is amazing. Of course I’ll do it. And so I started trying to institute these small experiments in other classes. And that’s where it really hit a brick wall. Because the way schools are set up even as the head of that school the way schools are set up, and the bell schedules, and the teachers teachers constraints, and they have to see 150 kids today. It wasn’t working. No matter what I tried to do I would always run up against some constraint of the system. And that’s where I really started to say. No matter how hard teachers try something is built against them. Something is fighting them. There’s a force that’s fighting them. That’s why teachers leave. That’s why teachers don’t always stay in the profession for 30 years. And so when I came back to the States. I knew that I would face those same constraints. So my mission became to break down those barriers to try something different. And that’s what led me to online learning. And then eventually to what I do now.
Elizabeth: I love that you had that unique experience, you know.
Being a teacher, then going right into an administration role at 25 years old. having that experience at a young age, seeing other teachers so much further in the process. Facing these brick walls. Now you’re the founder and CEO of KaiPod Learning.
So we’d love to hear a little bit about, how did that develop? You know, you came back, you worked on online learning and what are some of the seed stories about how that came about.
Amar: Yeah. When I came back to the States I had this problem that I was thinking about that every teacher who’s listening will recognize. You have developed a lesson plan for the class on Wednesday morning and you’re about to deliver this lesson plan. You look at it your class and you say, “Oh my goodness.” A third of these kids are going to have no clue what I’m talking about?
Because they really need a different type of support. You look at the other side of the class you’re like the other third of the kids are going to be bored because they already know this. This is not what they want to learn. So at best I’m going to reach the middle third I’m going to try my best to keep all of them engaged all of them interested, but that’s an impossible task.
That problem some people call it the Swiss cheese problem or segmentation or there’s lots of names for it, but every teacher will recognize this. Is it’s really hard to personalize instruction. When you’re asked to stand and deliver, and so I wanted to change that and that’s what drew me to online learning where, you know, a curriculum is developed where the scope and sequence has been determined. Um and the child moves through it at their own pace. It’s more self paced and the role of the online teacher is to support the child wherever they may be. And say, “Okay.” Elizabeth looks like you’re in Module 3. You’ve really been struggling with this module. Let’s do a one on one to help you on this and you can go on to Module 4, and you’ll stay on Module 3 until you’ve mastered it. I loved it. I was like this is the future. Now every teacher doesn’t have to create her own lesson plan. Every student doesn’t have to move at someone else’s pace. It’s perfect.
So I became the head of product for Pearson’s Connections Academy. So you’ve heard of Connections Education. The second largest chain of online schools. I became the head of products. I built the technology, built the curriculum. So this is the future I’ve figured it out. Um. But then of course started to realize oh yeah it’s actually really lonely being a child sitting in their kitchen doing their own online courses. And for online teachers, you’ve got two to three hundred kids that you’re sort of overseeing in an online school platform. That’s really hard too. So no I haven’t figured this out. There is more to be done.
And that’s where the idea came and this was during the pandemic that all these kids were learning online. They actually, some of them, were enjoying the academic experience. But they were missing out on the social experience. The emotional development. The parents were missing out on let’s call it childcare, right. There are a lot of things that were missing. So the idea came about is why don’t we blend those two. What if we created small groups of kids who could come together, learning pods, to learn they can move at their own pace. They were in a safe space so the parents could then go to work, and then they were building friendships et cetera.
So, first couple of months in, I thought I’d invented something brand new. Like I have created a brand new school model. And then of course then people said yeah this exists. These are called pandemic pods. These are called micro schools. We’ve been doing this.
So that’s where I really love this idea of empowering parents to choose a new option. Making it more easy for them to choose it. Giving kids the agency to drive their own pace of learning, and then importantly changing the role of an educator from deliverer of a lesson plan to a coach for kids. We’ll talk about Kaipod, but essentially that’s what Kaipod does is it really changes how an educator shows up for kids.
Elizabeth: Pearson with the online learning and you recognize that’s not enough, you know, just the academics, they need the social interaction. And I think that story really resonates so much. Like in my classroom, I thought that’s how it was every day.
You know, you’re like, well, these, these guys are not engaged. these kids are somewhere else. it was just that daily struggle that I think, you know, a lot of teachers can connect with. Before we move on and get further into micro schools, when you moved to head of product, How did you learn those skills, you know, from teaching and going into this product role ?
Amar: Yeah it was a lot of it was trial by fire. you know the role of a product leader is really to deeply understand the customer. And, in this case, the customer would have been an online learning student, an online teacher, or the parent of an online learning student. So really, I mean, I at least understood two or three of those really really well. So it’s deeply understand them and then help the technology teams figure out how to build curriculum and technology for those kids those audiences. So I learned it on the job, and I you know like anything like any teacher you learn very quickly you have to adapt. So that wasn’t the hard part. I think the hard part was really sort of solving the right problems, right.
Like you I can build a great online curriculum but it’s not going to solve the socialization problem. I can build a really great technology platform that can engage kids on zoom. But that’s not going to solve the childcare problem, right. So we need an education system that solves the real problems and quote jobs to be done for teachers for parents and for kids. And I believe that micro schooling is now the forefront of that movement of really solving those jobs for all three constituencies.
Elizabeth: Well, a lot of our audience, are teachers and some of them have already moved on. They’re in different industries now, but a lot of them are still on the fence. You know, they love education, they love kids, but they, they’re ready to get out of the traditional environment. So what would you say that KaiPod and micro schools bring?
What’s that value added that’s going to, make a difference for the teaching experience?
Amar: This is such an important question because we see the data you all know the data that millions of teachers hundreds of thousands of teachers want to leave the profession. And many of them want to leave completely. They want to leave the education sector, and that’s a huge risk for our society because we still need education. We can’t just send AI robots to do it. we need to find a way to create new career pathways for educators. And when you speak to an educator who wants to leave the profession they don’t say, “Oh I realized I actually hate kids.” No that’s not what they say. They say I didn’t like the job, I didn’t like the constraints that I was being put under, I didn’t like the lack of freedom to innovate. They didn’t like the system. They still love kids.
So what I see is my job is let me help you as a teacher see that you can still serve kids outside of the constraints of an existing system.
Now I’m not an ideologue. I don’t say anti public school, anti, no I don’t care about any of that. I want you as a teacher to build what you are passionate about outside of the constraints of other people’s systems.
So this program that we launched called Catalyst. uh, we’ve run three groups of teachers through it. Almost a hundred teachers have gone through this. And essentially the idea is if you have the passion to start your own school. But always thought, “Oh my goodness, that sounds really hard.” Or, “I wouldn’t even know the first thing about starting a school, but boy if I could start a school it would be amazing.” Kids would thrive. Parents would love it.
If that sounds like you Catalyst is going to help you do that. And the way it works is you apply to join the program, and if you’re accepted, you get the full playbook on how to start a school. It’s an incredibly detailed course on everything you’re going to need to do. Understanding marketing financial planning regulation legal stuff, insurance, finding families, right. Like there’s a ton of modules. So you understand all of that but you’re not doing it alone. You get coaching from our team. So our team built the largest network of micro schools that any company has. So we’ve learned a lot about what to do and what not to do. So as part of the Catalyst program you get our coaching.
Third there’s a community of dozens and dozens of other founders who are on this same journey. So there’s a few that are a few steps ahead of you. There’s some that are behind you. But together, you’re supporting each other through this incredible challenge of starting your own school. And then fourth we have access to capital either loan funds grants investments. We can connect you to people who can help your school get off the ground.
So what I see is I’m going to lower the friction for you to start your own school. So that by next fall you’re in a let’s call it a one room schoolhouse in this beautiful retail location. You have recruited the kids that you want to serve. And maybe it’s gifted students. Maybe it’s neurodiverse students. Maybe it’s student athletes. Your choice. What is the passion you have. And then you become the founder of that school, and it grows with you. That’s the catalyst program that we’re building, and I’m on this mission to just help every teacher see that he or she deserves more than they’re getting today.
Elizabeth: so the Catalyst program. is it about a year of training until you start your school ?
Amar: Yeah you don’t need a lot of time to start a micro school. So it’s about eight or ten months of training slash community events group sessions to do all the things you need to do to get started.
Elizabeth: I know this isn’t your role, but would you be able to kind of walk us through a day in the life of a teacher who has a pod? You know, what does that look like? How many students,
Amar: all of that is up to the teacher. So, if you want to serve let’s say, uh, neurodiverse students from the autism spectrum, you may only want three to four students because you need a higher touch support. Whereas, if you’re serving high school student athletes who are sort of balancing soccer with academics, you might have 15 kits, right? the size depends on your vision.
On average it’s about 10 kids per teacher. Those 10 kids, they come in every day. And you are their coach or their teacher depending on your model. most of the time, you’re using some form of an online technology to drive the core instruction and then you are there as a support role. So you’re not creating lesson plans and teaching and creating assignments and grading and creating unit tests and assessing. No you’re not doing any of that. You use an online curriculum to do those things that are more administrative, and then you show up and say what does each child need today. So if Joey today needs a little extra tutoring on this subject that’s what I’m going to do. If Susie just needs a little bit of a pick me up and like a motivational talk, that’s what I’m going to do. And if Karen over here is totally fine and needs me to leave her alone, that’s what I’m going to do. So, you as a teacher get to do the thing you probably thought you wanted to do when you got into the profession. Is support kids individually. Not all the other stuff that our systems have made us do.
Elizabeth: That’s great to be able to have the ability for that one-on-one time. Can you have multiple age ranges? is that kind of open to the teacher?
Amar: Yeah, absolutely. We recommend you actually explore two to three years of an age range in any micro school because that creates so many positive healthy dynamics in a pod or a micro school. There’s research that shows if kids have a little bit of an age span, there’s less bullying, there’s less negative pressures. you can imagine probably why right. There’s like a hierarchy built in with age .
Um, if you have multiple age bands you can serve more kids. It helps families with siblings. Uh it also ensures that you never sort of go back into those role of a teacher, the the the teach the content to the kids cause if you have a 10 year old and a 12 year old they need different things. And so if you start to get tempted by, “Oh, I’m going to do the same thing for everyone that will naturally prevent you from doing it.” So we find that most micro schools 80 to 90 percent of them have an age range and they use that to their advantage .
Elizabeth: what has been the parent response to some of this, uh, in the communities and how do they get involved and hear about it and learn about it?
Amar: advantage. Parents who discover micro schools either have the reaction of this is too good to be true, or I don’t think I’m ready for this. And those are both valid to talk about. There are a lot of parents after the pandemic who say I want greater control and visibility into what’s happening. I want to be able to shape my child’s learning. And microschools because they have 10 kids can be so flexible, right. They can start later and earlier. They can provide flexibility for families that need it.
They can individualize the support for a child or their family if needed. So there’s a lot of parents who say, “Oh my goodness, this is what I’ve wanted.” Like no big system public or private could deliver me this but this founder of this micro school did.
And then of course there are the parents who are like well where is the drama club? Where’s the football team? I don’t want that, right. So there’s some parents who are not, it’s not going to be right for, Let’s not kid ourselves..
But I think what we’ve seen is there are a lot more parents, you know, becoming a sizable margin of parents who are saying, ” The traditional constructs are no longer working for my child or my family. I notice that the best teachers have left or are leaving. I need an alternative.”
And so when Kaipod, we see this writing on the wall that families are looking around for alternatives. We want to help those teachers say let’s help you create that alternative that your families are looking for.
Elizabeth: That makes sense and goes directly back to that problem that you found and how do we solve it? for those listeners who are curious and interested, for teacher licensing, credentialing, you know, I’m, I have mine in the state of California, so when you start a micro school, um, do you need that or how does that look?
Amar: Each state is different. Many states you do not need a teacher credential to start a micro school. So if you have a credential already that can be an attractive thing for many families. But it’s not a requirement in many states. Most states I would say. And it’s one of those things where it also depends on the model of your school. In the Catalyst program we talk about multiple sort of archetypes of micro schools and depending on your archetype you may or may not need a certificate. But it never hurts to have one. So if teachers have one, and they want to keep it alive it actually can help with your marketing and attracting families.
Elizabeth: And then location, what does that look like? Is it a library or?
Amar: It’s all of the above. I sort of say there’s in the box and out of the box. Um, you know there are people who run microschools and community centers in churches in libraries. Some running in their homes. They can rent retail locations. Like a strip mall sort of store can get converted into a micro school. We see offices with a lot of vacant space that can convert a floor into a school. those are some of the more common things.
And there’s out of the box solutions. We have a few founders in our program who are converting school buses into classrooms. Imagine the magic school bus right from back in the day Um so these founders are going to have classes on the bus. So they’ve converted seats they’ve installed air conditioning and bathrooms. and so these kids will be learning on the bus in the morning, and then in the afternoon the bus will go drive to somewhere in the community for hands-on work, and field trips, and volunteer activities. We have founders who host micro schools in co working spaces or in the outdoors, right. So so many options. And this is where if a teacher has a vision about something we’re gonna help you bring that to life. We want to really help you build the school of your dreams, and it doesn’t have to be in the box. It can be outside.
Elizabeth: I’ve got to look up and see one of these school buses after this.
Amar: If you go on our website you’ll see a couple of pictures of it.
Elizabeth: You know, teachers currently, if they’re in public education, they’ve got a salary schedule. what does that compensation look like? Is it is it from Kaipod? Is it from the state? And then what does funding look like? how do they get supplies, you know, find a place? Talk us through that.
Amar: Wait very important questions. So in the Catalyst Program, you’re opening an independent school, so you will become an independent agent and entrepreneur. And so we’ll help you figure out whether you should set up a nonprofit or an LLC to incorporate your school. And then we help you build a budget a financial model. And if you’re going to recruit 10 kids, and they’re going to pay a tuition. And then let’s say it’s $10,000 each. Let’s just for the sake of simple numbers then your budget is $100,000. Out of that money, you decide how much you want to get paid. You decide what your budget is for space to rent material supplies insurance marketing costs, right. Etc, etc.
So we help you create a budget that aligns with the size of your school, and the tuition you think you want to charge. And so your pay comes out of your school.
In terms of other things like state funding. if you live in a state such as Arizona, or Florida, or West Virginia, Iowa, Arkansas: There’s 10 or 12 states where there’s the concept of an education savings account. And essentially what that is is families who live in these states with an ESA If you opt out of public education, then those families get essentially a debit card to spend on educational expenses. Let’s say $8,000 to $10,000 on this card. So then families could use that debit card to pay for your school. And so what then that becomes is much more affordable, right.
If you’re creating a school for a high needs community who couldn’t afford let’s say $10,000, well now having access to this ESA will make your school a lot more affordable .
So those are some of the public sources of funding, There’s a lot of private sources. Some microschools choose to raise donations or get fundraising going. So it’s kind of a mix of those three.
Elizabeth: That’s very helpful. And so interesting. I didn’t even know about the ESA.
Amar: There are already a million kids nationally using the ESA program. Can you believe it? A million kids. And it’s only in certain states. So that’s why, I think you live in California you said. California does not have an ESA unfortunately. So you probably haven’t heard about it. But if you’re in Arizona or Florida, New Hampshire. There’s a bunch of states where this is available, and now you can build a school that could possibly be free to families. Isn’t that amazing?
Elizabeth: just having that awareness, you know, I some of these government programs, it’s just hard for people to know about and, and be aware. So I think this is great that you’re bringing awareness and, you can give opportunities to families who might have not had those opportunities.
Amar: That’s right And you know even if you’re in a state that doesn’t have an ESA. You know, hope is not lost because private schools exist. Catholic schools exist and other parochial schools exist. So you have to ask yourself, does your community have a need for more school options. is there a particular price point where those school options could be more relevant?
you know, we as teachers we often end up undervaluing ourselves. We often end up saying no what I’m building is not worth paying for. And a lot of the coaching that I do as part of the Catalyst Program personally is, hey, you built something amazing like you should charge for it. You should be proud. Families should find a way out to afford this, and they will. It’s a matter of priorities. So I’m so excited about this trend of teachers building amazing learning spaces and inspiring kids and families everywhere.
Elizabeth: And that brings me into my next question. You mentioned coaching teachers, and I was going to ask about that support, you know, especially someone who joins the program. They start a school a year later. You know, do they have someone they could go to if they’re having a challenge or a struggle?
Amar: Yes. I’m so glad you asked this. This is one of the biggest differentiators of our program.
The way I like to say it is you’re a teacher you’ve got a salary, health benefits, pension. You’re taking a big risk to start a school. Let’s be serious right. If you’re going to commit to this journey, then I’m going to commit to you. And so as part of the Catalyst Program, we don’t just help you get off the ground and say goodbye. We are committed to you for three years after you launch. We are your partners for three full years. And the goal there is we want to get your school to thrive. That, That means maximizing your enrollment, building a wait list, delivering really great academics so that parents just can’t wait to come back. Delivering an amazing student experience, so students complain when you have to go on vacation, right.
Like that’s what that’s the magic is about of micro schools. Kids hate vacation. They love being at school because now that school reflects who they are. And so for three years we’re going to be your partners to support you in this. After that three years if you want to be our partner you can if you don’t want to be our partner that’s fine, too. But our hope is to build this incredible national network of the best teachers who say I can do it better. I can build a school.
Elizabeth: And in terms of when someone does create their new school, what does the marketing look like in that community? Is there some resources to be able to, bring awareness to the community that there’s a new micro school?
Amar: Yeah this is a huge part of the program. In fact, one of the first modules is marketing creating awareness for your school. So we have website templates, flyer templates. We have a local activation plan. We have local Facebook groups that you would join to actually start telling people about your school. So there’s this whole multi part playbook on creating awareness. Then, once you create awareness that it’s about nurturing those interests and continuing to help them make the decision to join your school.
And then once they’ve said yes I’m ready then converting them into paid customers. So we have a sort of three step playbook on that. with lots of useful, practical advice as well as templates that you can just copy and paste.
Elizabeth: And for this year program, the Catalyst Program, is there an ability if someone was working full time to do it on top of working? Or how, how does that look?
Amar: Absolutely. This is designed for people who are actively working and teaching. We know that very few people are going to be able to take a whole year off to start a school. And the good news is you actually don’t need to take a whole year off to start your school. So the entire catalyst program is built to sit on top of an existing job or sometimes let’s be clear multiple jobs, right. Teachers often have multiple jobs. So it’s built to sit on top of that. So the content is asynchronous. You sort of do it at your pace. A lot of the sessions are in the evenings or weekends. So you can participate and not disrupt your daily work.
Uh, what we ask is you have at least 10 hours a week to spend on this. And that can be evenings, weekends. You’ll figure out where you want to carve out the time but you do need to be serious about launching the school next fall, which means you got to start doing the hard work in the time that you have. .
I also should mention we don’t charge anything for the Catalyst Program. It is, believe it or not, upfront totally free of cost. our revenue only comes in when you start your school. So, for that three year period we have sort of a per student fee. I want to help you grow, and, as you grow, that’s only then do I get paid. So the idea here is I don’t want any teachers to take a risk without me also feeling that risk. And I don’t want any teachers to take out loans or anything to pay me. The idea is we grow with your school.
Elizabeth: It’s great that this can be done in addition. You know, on top of full time work, because that’s the reality. People are working full time looking for something else, so 10 hours a week sounds very doable.
Amar: It’s not easy but it is doable.
Elizabeth: Yes, definitely, yes. On top of work, tough, but doable. and what does the application process look like?
Let’s say some teachers are listening and they’re ready to get started. What are the next steps?
Amar: Start by going to kaipodlearning.com. com You’ll see a button that’s called “Start My School” or something like that. Um, click that, and there’s an application. if you are ready to apply our cohort will start in October this year. what you have to do is you submit a written application first, for us to get to know you; understand a little bit about your school vision. You do not need to have everything figured out. The whole point of this program is to help you figure this out. So you need to have enough the ingredients of something interesting. submit that in a written application. Then we’ll invite you in for an interview. We do a video interview with every single applicant who’s being considered.
And then in that interview we’ll go deeper. We’ll try to understand your motivations try to understand your community. And then in that interview at the end we’ll be serious. Do we think we can help you? Do we think this is a school that can thrive? And if not we’re honest about that, we don’t want to mislead anyone to go down this path if we don’t believe you can start. So that’s the interview process. And then if you’re accepted then you basically join our community and then you start building your school when the cohort starts.
Elizabeth: Well, we’ll make sure to put your website link in the show notes. That way people know exactly where to go, And it has been such a pleasure getting to know you today and learning about KaiPod. And we kind of like to wrap things up by asking, what did you learn about yourself? During this transition, you know, from teaching in India to, you know, starting this, this company.
Amar: I think I learned that I get obsessed about certain problems. There’s a problem of, you know, the whole job of a teacher is broken, and the system is always fighting against the things that a teacher wants to do. I just can’t stop thinking about it, and I think my whole career is dedicated to this problem. And even when I was doing that at online learning, and now doing it here is about empowering teachers to do the thing that they actually want to do rather than something the system is making them do. So I think I learned that about myself is I can’t let it go. Thank
Elizabeth: I love that though. We need, we need people who are obsessed about solving these problems. These are big ones, too, you know, the education system.
We so appreciate you supporting teachers and educators. Thank you so much for joining us.
Amar: Thank you for having me Thanks to all your listeners too.
